KZAM INTERVIEW

 Note From the Interviewer

I grew up finding KZAM pieces in the tunnels of Palo Alto. He was a local legend and someone we all spoke about in high regard. It was an honor to interview him and I love interviewing any writers with history in the peninsula (If you are one please reach out). After we did the interview KZAM called me and asked if we could do a second one. He said it was really important for him to be honest about his drug use and how it affected his life. I was more than happy to talk to him about whatever he wanted.

After he died I reached out to GTB to ask how they felt about me posting/publishing this interview. I was and still am very nervous about printing stuff related to people who have passed, especially if I didn’t know them. My fear is people thinking I’m trying to make attention/”money” off a dead friend. GTB didn’t have any response so I decided the best thing to do was just let it sit for a few years before posting. 

If you have old KZAM photos please send them my way! I’d love to print them in the magazine and also I’d love this page to be a collection of old photos of his for anyone that ever searches his name online. If you have a story about KZAM you’d like to share I’d also be happy to have it live here!

Send photos or stories to sup@killprettymagazine.com

This interview was done in 2018 for what I can tell

Kill Pretty: What’s your earliest graffiti memory?

KZAM: I had a little marker, and I remember just drawing anarchy signs all over the neighborhood. I'd never done graffiti before that, but that's the first time that I remember doing it. I grew up in Palo Alto area and saw a lot of ORFN and stuff like that, MARVL. I actually met ORFN and he gave me a Pilot when I was tagging in the tunnel at the Palo Alto train station with a Sharpie, and he came up and he... I forget what I even wrote back then, but he came up and saw me with this little tiny Sharpie, and gave me a big Pilot, and he hit up ORFN and I was like "Oh, shit!" I'd seen him everywhere. And it was kind of cool to meet him in person. But honestly I was like 11, 12 years old.

KP: What was he like at that time?

KZAM: He was skating and he was nice. He was nice to me. I mean, he stopped us in the tunnel; we were little kids, you know, compared to them, they were way older. I remember him being interested in the fact that we were doing graffiti. I met a lot of writers as I grew up that weren't nice, and they were always trying to say, you know, "Don't bite my style!" or "You're a toy!" and all that shit, when I was young, a little kid. It was always cool to meet people that were supportive and inspiring. You know what I mean? And he was one of those guys.

KP: How did you even know, to write graffiti?

KZAM: I saw it, and I remember liking it. And I remember originally, I didn't know that it was letters. I just saw arrows and doodads as a little kid, you know? I didn't really know that it was letters so I made up this little tag with a pen that didn't really say anything when I was real young. And I remember hitting that up when I was really young. And I would draw an anarchy sign or something next to it, you know, a star, an arrow. But it didn't say anything man, it didn't say anything, it was just a bunch of doodads you know? And then I guess it was just from skateboarding, I think, because I was really into skateboarding. Just being around older, cooler guys.

KP: Were you seeing graffiti in Palo Alto? Or do you mean when you went to San Francisco?

KZAM: Oh, Palo Alto used to have a lot back then. And also my family's from the east coast and I would go back and visit them. And I remember being older, once I actually started writing, going to New York, and I was about 16. At that point I was writing KZAM and I went to New York to visit family and was just amazed by the graffiti. JA was all over, everywhere I went, and I was super inspired by it. And then having friends that went out to New York, and as time moved on- I got into GTB when I was 15 years old. All those guys were older than me at that point. But I met- CYLOE was my little crime partner back then and we just went everywhere and painted everything together. He knew EIDR, and EIDR knew SIBL, and eventually we all hung out and they asked me to join the crew because they'd seen me up. And I was intimidated but I was like, "Hell yeah!" because I'd seen 'em up all over the place. It was cool because they were writers that were different than the writers I knew at school and around the neighborhood and shit because they were nice. Well not nice, but they weren't all about beef. They were more about actually doing graffiti than the drama. So that was cool. They were a good influence on me, definitely. I met SIBL, I met TAPE, HINDU, DEPOT, ERUPTO327, NAO. And then EIDR, he was a big influence too. At that point I was going to the city all the time. I'd go with CYLOE a lot. We'd go into the city, and we'd go up on the 7F bus, and just fucking get off on the last bus and spend the night bombing the city and then take the first bus back in the morning. It was crazy but it was fun. Early on there was lots of cop chases, getting arrested and all that stuff. But then eventually I learned, I got caught a bunch. By 15 I'd probably been arrested six times, I think it was, for graffiti. But then I never have been caught since. So I kind of learned to run, or something. Something!

KP: So when you were first starting out, do you remember any of the people that you saw up in Palo Alto?

KZAM: In Palo Alto, yeah, MARVL, ORFN, SULK, he also wrote LUST. Well, SIBL. Let me think back... Mainly ORFN was up back when I was a kid. And MARVL, and those guys. That would've been like 93, 92/93. And then, as time went on, by I think 1997, at that point I was writing KZAM. And I was in GTB. 1998 we had a competition to see who could do the most freights. It was called Nineteen Ninety Freight. That year we all painted a bunch of freights, which was cool. And I got to know those guys, which became some of my best friends for life.

KP: Who won the competition?

KZAM: ERUPTO327.

KP: You had a crew before GTB, right? Didn't you have FB?

KZAM: Yeah. Yeah that was a long time ago. That was basically just me and CYLOE.

KP: How did you first meet CYLOE?

KZAM: Hmm. Through other writers that were... They called themselves KE back then. They haven't been a crew for a long time. It was just a crew around the neighborhood. But I met him through them. And then like I said he was older than me too, by a year. And at that age it's a lot. He was in high school and I was in middle school. And he knew EIDR, EIDR knew SIBL, and then eventually we were all in GTB together and the rest is history. And then by the time I was 17 a big influence of mine, TIE, died. You know about that, right? 

KP: Yeah. Did you know him at all?

KZAM: Yeah! Yeah, I met him a few times. Growing up before all that I met him on the 22, just on the bus, randomly, he came up and was like, "Hey you write?" Later on I met him a few other times as well. And he crushed hard, back in those days. I remember he went to New York and then he came back and he was just up everywhere. It was fuckin' crazy. And then he got shot and died. Which sucked. 

KP: Why did you start FB? What was the idea? Like, just how did it come about? And what did it stand for?

KZAM: Sure. I mean, FB, it hasn't been a crew for a long time. I think it stood for a lot of things. I think it stood for, you know, "Forever Bombing" or something like that, originally. I don't really remember what the original meaning was at this point. It was so long ago. This is over 20 years ago. And we started it, just me and CYLOE. And then there was another guy in it for a little bit who wrote SOAK. And eventually it just kind of disbanded. And both Evan and I started writing for GTB, and then we kind of left that behind.

KP: So you guys end up kind of connecting with GTB and they just want you in immediately? Or was there any kind of like initiation period?

KZAM: Well, with GTB, they want to make sure that you're cool to hang out with and stuff too, so, hung out with them a few times and got along with them. And then yeah, they wanted me in because they'd seen me up so much. And they were kind of still, I don't want to say still forming because they'd been a crew for a little bit, but those were the formative years, I'd say.

KP: You have a really classic style, but it definitely has a very unique flow to it. While I see a lot of old school bar style in it, it still feels very different and unique, which is something that's really hard to pull off. Where would you say your style came from?

KZAM: I would say it came from painting, over and over, the same letters, and doing it in different ways. And eventually the bar style, of straight letter throw ups, that's just something I can do really quickly and it's very readable and easy to pull off when I don't have a lot of time, you know? So it's just become something that's easy. I always liked... when I went to New York, and I would see JA up, the way he would do throw ups, J, A, one after the other, straight letters just after another after another, very clean, legible, readable. I was inspired by that. Those kinds of straight letters, I'd say. And always just liked the way that big bold block styles look. I like seeing how fast I can do one, I really love just a clean, silver fill-in, black outline, yellow additional outline big throw-up with really clean legible letters. You know, that takes less than 10 minutes. That's what I love.

KP: Is it more about the destruction? Or is it more about the visual, like just big, bold letters?

KZAM: Oh, it's more about the feeling I get from doing it. It's all going to get painted over eventually, so, you know, it's more about just the act of doing it, than anything. You know, I got a high from doing it and got addicted to that high.

KP: Yeah, it's funny because I see you as very much a bomber and a throw up specialist. But I saw maybe 10 years ago, you did a piece in the bowl that said, like "Lil Elf" on it. And it was a really technical piece. You really, if you want to, you can paint the more technical pieces. Is it just that it's kind of boring to you, or uninteresting? Or what?

KZAM: No, I like doing pieces. I like painting trains a lot. I do like doing pieces.

KP: Why do you think you gravitate so much towards the bombing then?

KZAM: Because of the rush that it provides. I like doing stuff that's exciting, I guess. And also it's easier, it takes less time. But yeah, I've always done pieces since I was young.  I've always done pieces. I just don't... Like when I go out at night and paint some spot, I'm not necessarily going to do a piece on it if it's right out in the open and going to take a while.

KP: Over the years have you seen a lot of changes in your style? Or have you felt like you've stayed more steady in what you've been working on?

KZAM: Well yeah, I've seen some changes I guess. Definitely. Graffiti's definitely changed, not just for me personally. But the main thing I would say, personally, is that I stopped getting caught when I was a kid and got better at it I guess, got better at taking precautions to make sure that didn't happen. As I got older, running from the police, I got better at that. Better at a lot of types of things that don't necessarily have to do with style but has to do with keeping a word up for a long period of time and getting away with it. Without all the drama I guess. But graffiti has definitely changed, it's become a lot more accepted and a lot more popular, I would say. And I think that has to do with the internet.

KP: What has it been like watching graffiti slowly devolve into something internet based almost, you know? It seems like it's less and less about actually on the streets, but what people are posting. How has that been for you?

KZAM: I've never really paid attention to that stuff. I never got into the whole internet thing. That's kind of just the culture I come from, you know, GTB, Good Time Boys, I don't know, I can't speak for all of them but I would say that for, generally speaking I care about doing it, rather than making an impression on people. It's more selfish and more personal. The only reason I paint at this point is because I absolutely love the way that it feels to do. It's not to be up anymore. I mean I still write the same word, so I guess it's the same thing. But it's just about the feeling more than like... I think that people kind of go wrong when they get away from that. Because it all gets painted over anyway.

KP: Where did you first come up with your word?

KZAM: Comic books.

KP: Are you a big comic book nerd?

KZAM: I liked comic books, yeah!

KP: What kind of comics were you into?

KZAM: Oh, all kinds man, but as a kid I liked DC Comics and normal things. Today, I like Robert Crumb and stuff like that.

KP: Like more of the underground stuff.

KZAM: Yeah, I'd say so.

KP: Have you ever tried drawing comics?

KZAM: A little bit, but no, not really.

KP: Have you been in any other crews besides FB and GTB?

KZAM: Sometimes I write THR. I was in jail with JADE and became friends with him. And he asked me to write THR and occasionally I hit it up.

KP: Oh, wow.  What was it like meeting him in jail?

KZAM: It was crazy. Because I didn't know who he was for the first two weeks. And then once we realized that we were both writers we became friends immediately. And we realized we knew some of the same people. He was a really nice guy. It sucks what happened. But I don't really write it that much because I don't really know them, you know? GTB, I know them very well, they're like my best friends.

KP: Yeah, that makes sense. What has it been like, as far as how the Bay Area has changed, for you?

KZAM: I mean, I've come and gone and I've done graffiti on and off and I have a lot of other stuff I do in my life today. But overall, graffiti is nothing like it was in the 90s. I mean, even the early 2000s. It was awesome back then, especially in San Francisco, I would say. It's funny, it's become more accepted but the overall caliber of graffiti up has gone downhill. You know, with all this internet stuff. Back in the day going into San Francisco when I was a kid was a magical experience. I'd go up there with a camera and just take pics of TWIST, and you know, everything. And then I remember when all those MSKAWR guys came to the city, they rocked it. AMAZE back in the day, all those old heads. There's just not that high caliber of graffiti. I'm not trying to speak badly about anybody who's up today, but I'm just saying overall it's just not at the same level it used to be.

KP: Why do you think that is?

KZAM: I think that it's because of a number of reasons. I think the internet has something to do with it. Nowadays someone can paint something and just take a picture of it and post it and they get that instant gratification. When it used to be more heartfelt, it used to be: you go out, you paint something, and if you're lucky you get a flick of it. And you do it more for the act of doing it, I guess. And I'm not saying getting flicks is bad or posting stuff on the internet is bad. I'm just saying... It's much easier for people to get recognition than it used to be.

KP: Did you ever make your own graffiti zine or help with any graffiti zines?

KZAM: Yeah, here and there, sure. I do a lot of art stuff too, outside of graffiti.

KP: What kind of art?

KZAM: Paintings, drawing- figure drawing, portrait drawing, drawing from life, drawing out of my head. Same with painting. Play music, too. And all that stuff, like skateboarding. It's all been positive, just like graffiti was.

KP: Was skateboarding a big part of your growing up?

KZAM: Yeah, definitely.

KP: Because that's one thing that I hear over and over and over again, from every old school head in the peninsula is that skateboarding kind of tied everything together and connected everyone.

KZAM: Yeah, definitely. You were asking how I met ORFN, and it was because I was skating at the train station and so was he. It never would have happened if it weren't for skateboarding. Yeah, I mean, it did. Not everybody who wrote skated, but yeah, definitely a lot of the old school heads did.

KP: When I interviewed MARVL he had a bunch of really funny, different ways of racking and weird little things they would do to get over on people. Are there any that you can remember that you're willing to share with us? Maybe that, you know, don't work anymore or something? Any little schemes that you used to run that were really fun?

KZAM: Well, yeah, I mean, of course, there's going and pulling carts out of the store, you know, we would change labels, we would take a barcode, scan it and print it on the sticker paper, for a can that cost $1. And then we would get Rustos for $1 a piece, or taping the barcode over the other one. We would just pull carts out of the store, we would find whatever sale code was on the sale house paint and fucking write it on a different can. Find someone who works at the store, a girlfriend of somebody's or whatever, walk through their line. All kinds of things. I think racking was a huge part of having a means to get up early on. And I like that because it just kind of shows... It's like, by any means necessary, I guess.

KP: Do you have a chase story you want to tell?

KZAM: I was doing throw-ups on Mission St. with TAIN. Who you probably haven't heard of- so we're doing fill-ins on Mission. And I was finished, and he was still painting and the police rolled up in a paddy wagon. And one of them- it was just one in a big van and he rolls up and hops out of the van and starts running into the parking lot, but we were at that point crouched between two cars. He ran into the back of the parking lot and I was like, "Okay, let's creep out while he's in the back." So we started creeping out from in between two cars, and all of a sudden another paddy wagon rolls up and the guy from the back of the parking lot saw us, the cop from the back. The other cop gets out, he pulls out his gun, and then the other cop comes running up behind us and he puts the gun toward my face, I put my hands up, and the other cop's coming up behind me. And then TAIN starts running. And the cop switched from me over to him and tackles him with his gun in his hand, and then I start running, just down the street and the cop from the back of the parking lot chases me on foot. And it was the craziest foot chase ever. Up Mission St. to Sixth and went right on Six. And as I'm running down Sixth Street, all the homeless people, the crackheads, were yelling "Get away from him, go go go!" cheering me on. Cuz he's like 10 feet behind me and I'm just running. And then I turn left into an alley, I go down the alley, hop over a fence, take everything I had, all my gloves, all my paint, take my gloves off, throw them in my backpack, and just throw it on a roof, and keep hopping fences and running. Eventually I jumped under a car, and the police came up with their flashlights and were shining them around, and I was lying underneath the car. And they finally went away. But, you know, the point of that story is, is that if at any point you stop running, you're done. And it's just about getting away. Sometimes that's what it takes.

KP: The scariest chases are always when you get really up close to a cop. You know, like when you really can look in their face, and then you get away.

KZAM: And then TAIN showed up at my apartment the next morning after getting out of jail. All pissed off. I felt bad for him.

KP: So what is graffiti to you now?

KZAM: Oh it's just a good pastime. I'm happy that I've met some of my closest friends through doing it. It's a habit. It's an addiction, I would say. And it's funny, because it's super trendy right now. But, you know, at some point everyone's going to hate it again, because that's how it is. I think it's great that people are spending lots of money buying graffiti art these days. That's awesome, you know? And it's cool that writers are getting supported that way, financially. But it's not graffiti. Graffiti is going out and painting stuff illegally. And I think that there's still a lot of dope legal stuff that goes up. But I miss the way that things used to look in the old days. I'll just say that. I'm not saying it was better then I'm just saying I miss it. You know, it's like a nostalgic- the same way when I look at like an old piece of someone from back then it brings back a sense of nostalgia. 

Graffiti used to be a thing you had to go outside to see. And actually be in the streets, in the yards, by the train tracks, watching trains go by, whatever.  Or to know somebody that had a picture of their shit, and showed it to you, or showed you their homie's pic. Or there were graff magazines, and those were huge. I remember Tower Records, they used to sell graff mags, and we would go in there and just fucking look at those things like they were pornos, and look at all the fucking dope pics. And a lot of that was probably legal too back then. Except you would know when you saw something like a freight, it was illegal. I think there's a certain style when it comes to writers who paint illegally, and that comes from painting fast, and it comes from painting out in the open, and it comes from, really, I guess having balls. And I think that that's what the origins of graffiti are all about. Today there's a lot of great piecers out there that have grown up painting chill spots legally and I have nothing to hate on, on that. But they don't have good hand styles. And there's a difference between a writer that started out developing the basics, and then went on to the next thing. You know what I'm saying?

KP: What do you think about "street art?"

KZAM: I love street art. I love seeing stuff, you know, more colorful- but it's not the same as graffiti. And I love street art that resembles graffiti. I love street art done by graffiti artists. But it's not the same as graffiti if it's legal, it's just not. It lacks a certain- it lacks the fact that it's illegal and is a crime. For me, and for I think a lot of writers that grew up in the 90s or before, especially before, it was more about the rush than about... Not necessarily how good it looks, I mean, I love a balance of both. It's really dope, when you see something illegal that looks dope, that looks really good. But I think there's just this, this idea that people have nowadays, they see something, they see a piece on the wall, and they say, "Oh, that's graffiti." They see a piece on Instagram, and they say, "Oh, that's a graffiti artist." And they see a piece in a gallery, and they say that's a graffiti artist. And that's all great. But it all came from that initial desire to do something- you know it's really primitive in a way to say "I was here, here's my name." And it's been going on for a lot longer than the 80s, it's been going on for thousands of years, people have been writing, putting themselves out there on cave walls and shit. I mean, it's just old school, and you can't really get the same flavor from an artist that has primarily grown up doing legal pieces and maybe putting them on the internet. And I'm not hating on any of that I'm just saying it's a lot different than the scene I grew up in.

KP: It's weird. There's definitely a part of me that misses it. But I also really enjoy getting the graffiti on my phone. So I'm kind of torn, you know?

KZAM: Oh me too, yeah, I like it too. I actually just recently started, I was kind of, not against it, but... I just joined Instagram probably two years ago, you know? I was never into Flickr when it came out, or anything like that. And to be honest when I was doing graffiti it was all about, in the early days, it was all about the rush, and having fun with your boys, and fucking going out executing dope spots to the best of your ability, and racking paint, and all that shit that I think has kind of like fallen out of the scene a little bit. It's a little bit less ruthless. And back then people had beef with each other, now everybody's friends, which is awesome in a way. And that's not entirely true. For me, I took it to the next level, and got into other crimes and things like that, and started using drugs and chasing different rushes. And every time I would clean up from that life, I would go back to doing graffiti. Because it was kind of like a pure way for me to get the rush without all the toxicity, in a way. So all the games, of who has beef with who, and all the internet shit, and all the talking about graff, I've never really cared for it. To me, especially during the years when I was strung out, I did graffiti more as like: I was here, this is my name, and I'm moving on type of thing. Almost as a way to touch base with reality, and touch my roots, sort of, remember where I came from. And the thing about it is the two lifestyles have nothing in common, but being a graffiti writer back in the 90s, you learn how to rack paint, and you learn how to fucking run from cops. And all that stuff carried forth into being a criminal and a junkie and all that shit. And it helped me later on in ways but it maybe also primed me to fuck up my life a little bit.

KP: Did it make you a little more confident to do other shit? Like knowing... you already knew you could get away with so much?

KZAM: Yeah, I mean, sure, I already knew that I could fucking... seize the moment, and it wasn't so innocent anymore. And then as time moved on, I ended up in jail for other crimes not related to graffiti, and things to do with drugs. And I'd keep trying to put that lifestyle behind me, and in a way graffiti kind of helped me do that, like going back to it over and over. It was always kind of a way to express myself and not in a bitch ass way, in badass way.  And in a pure way, and in a sober way, and in just a real heartfelt way that I couldn't get from other things that I was doing at the time.

KP: Did you ever get a similar experience with other art forms? Or was there something about it being illegal that really helped you? 

KZAM: The closest thing I can think of is playing music in front of people. That rush is really similar in a way. Not similar, it's just very intense. But it's kind of funny because one you're hiding from everyone doing it, and then people see it later, and then the other one you're out there playing live and expressing yourself. And both those things carry a similar level of innocence and expression and heart felt creative energy for me. I started playing guitar really young and I started doing graffiti really young so both just always reminded me of who I was. That may sound cheesy, but it's true.

KP: How do you think your drug use affected your graffiti career?

KZAM: I mean, for a moment I just completely lost sight of the graffiti career. I always did graffiti, I just didn't push it when I was into drugs. It was more like something would happen, and I'd get really angry, and I'd go out and do some drugs. When I was not involved in that scene I would go scope spots, and I would find places to paint that were awesome, and would sketch things out, and try to meet new people and get involved in that, chill with my old homies. Which for a second I lost sight of, and really graffiti just became a way to... almost like smoking, just a habit. And I think that it's not a good thing, I think it's really easy for someone to go from doing graffiti, to doing drugs, not that the two have anything in common, but it's real simple. It's like, you're a criminal chasin' a rush, you're criminal chasin' a rush. Both are very similar. And a lot of artistic people get caught up in that kind of shit. In general, not just in graffiti. 

(On the difference between people growing up with graffiti on the internet and on the streets)

KZAM: Because certain people have a vibe to their pieces - even if they're doing 'em legally - that have painted a bunch of illegal graffiti because you've been out there, chasing the rush, fucking bombing trains, bombing the streets, bombing the freeways, all that shit. Bombing creeks, whatever, piecing creeks, you've been out there actually doing it. And that whole element of adrenaline, I feel puts an edge to both hand styles, throw-ups, and piecing, that you're never going to see with the generation of writers that grew up doing legal walls and learning everything from the internet. 

KP: Do you think of graffiti as art?

KZAM: I think graffiti is an art, but I don't necessarily think that street art and graffiti are the same. I think there's an art to graffiti. And the way I learned it, it was all about doing it illegally. And stemmed from there, all the artistic stuff. You know, I've gotten into drawing figures and taking classes. I've gone to school a little bit here and there, taken photography classes, film, painting classes, all kinds of shit, and then exposed to different sorts of art. But there's something about doing something where it doesn't belong, that is just different. I can't really explain it. And that is my whole point about the difference. 

KP: It's not just the art itself, but how the art, or how the graffiti affects you is different because it was done illegally, you know?

KZAM: When I decided to change my life at one point, I was willing to let go of a lot of things I did but graffiti was never one of them. That was always a part of me I wanted to hold onto because it represented youth, and rebellion! And I think we're at a time in the world today where- it's funny, it's like, you don't see illegal graffiti like you used to back in the day. As good, as dope, as fucking out there in the open, as you know you don't see writers going for it like they used to tryin' to king shit. But what better time is there than now? I mean, look at the world today! Every time something goes on with me, at this point, rather than go to a drug or a woman or something like that, I go out bombing. And fucking maybe I don't take pictures of it. Maybe I don't put it on Instagram. It always makes me laugh when I post something on the internet, people say "where you been ohhh he's gettin' up again." You know, I fucking don't post everything I do. And that's an old thing. I never fucking sent my shit into magazines, I never did any of that. I used to fucking see myself in magazines. And that felt much better than having sent your shit in. You know what I mean? It's more authentic when someone else takes a picture of your shit and puts it on the internet. You know, that's beautiful! And just recently, like less than a year ago, I opened an Instagram account and started posting some of my graffiti on the internet for the first time and it feels very weird. Very strange.

KP: Yeah, what's that like? What's that experience like?

KZAM: It just different. I almost don't enjoy it and want to delete the account. But, you know, I keep posting stuff, from back in the day, from today. I mean, I guess that's where graffiti is today. So it's like if I'm gonna keep doing it, it's nice to have a little way to occasionally document it. Even though I might not throw in everything I've ever done, or everything I ever do, but it's nice to have a little small collection of history. Because 99% of everything else I've ever done has been painted over.

KP: Well also people really love it.

KZAM: Uh, do they? Because, you know, I grew up at a time when they didn't, and now they do and that's weird too. Back in the day no one liked graffiti except graffiti writers. And now today everybody likes graffiti and that's fucking weird. But I think it's cool! And I think it's great that some artists are able to make a living off this shit. I did some little arrow designs for a friend of a friend who was an interior designer. And it was cool to match the colors with her drapery and her couch and all that shit. But it's not graffiti.

To be honest, what I like the best about graffiti is the group of friends I developed around it. And that I meet a lot of people today that are my age, and I'm 35, and I meet a lot of people that don't have long, deep relationships with people. I have people in my life that I've known since I was like 12, 15, 16, 18, 20 years old, that are best friends of mine. That's just a beautiful thing in itself. And if graffiti, all my shit got painted over, and I got to keep those homies, so what? That's what it's really about, is the good times. And that's why GTB always appealed to me because the original meaning of that was the Good Time Boys. And it was a crew that I got into when I was kind of straying off the path a little bit as a youngster. I was in this other graffiti crew that basically acted like a gang and they fucking were just no good man. I remember them beatin' up homeless people and shit. And then I got into GTB and those guys just wanted to have a good time. And they were way older than me most of them and I looked up to them, and it was a good influence on me as a youngster for sure, it was positive. A lot of them were into skateboarding and fucking, just positive shit you know? Music, both hip hop and punk, and hardcore, you can find anybody in that realm in graffiti because it draws a lot of different types of creative people to it.

Remember crisp fill-ins with fucking, you know a silver fill-in with a nice outline, yellow additional outline throw-up by TWIST or AMAZE or JOSH. And then MQ came to town and wrecked shit with TIE. Fuckin' AWR came to town, MSK, they wrecked shit. Fuckin' a lot of heads SETUP, TIE, MPQ all came through town around the same time. Before that it was TWIST, AMAZE, FELON, REMINISCE, BOMB, UFO before that. A lot- ORFN. ORFN disappeared for a bit but he was up in like 93 through 95? 92, 91, through when I started writing, I don't know how long he'd been doing it but he was up like a madman. ORFN, MARVL. And then through 95ish, and then he kind of disappeared. And then all of a sudden he's back again in like 2000. There was a lot of writers. All the Oakland guys, TDK, DREAM, all those fucking guys. And then of course my crew. SIBL, EIDR, ERUPTO327, HINDU, KINE, CYLOE, SPAM, TAPE! Big up to TAPE.